silverthunder | On the topic of fanfiction

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On the topic of fanfiction

So, there seems to be some kind of movement with published authors on the 'net - not an actual organized anything, but Diana Gabaldon posted something on the subject and now it seems that George R.R. Martin has done the same.

The topic in question is fanfiction, and I believe the main point of the argument is that it is immoral to be writing fanfiction. There's some question of the legality - fanfic has always been on the borderline of legality - but I think this is really a question of morality.

herongale did an excellent post on the subject here, which I think anyone interested in the topic should read. She also posted it as a response to GRRM and was blithely ignored, it seems. I was skimming some of the comments and it kind of struck me how little the original posters were willing to really listen to what those who disagreed with them had to say.

I'm not against the idea of authors deciding that they're uncomfortable with the idea of fanfiction for their work and requesting that any and all of it be taken down. That's entirely their right. I'm 100% likely to lose any and all interest in ever reading their original works as a result, but that's entirely my right, and given that neither of these authors lack for adoring fans, I'm sure they won't miss me.

The idea that gets me is this notion that writing the fanfic in the first place is immoral. If I write something based on your work - essentially an expression of my love for the source material - I can be equated to thieves and rapists? Just by picking up a pen and writing on a piece of paper, 'Harry Potter decided to go get a job in a tea shop'?

I'm not going to talk about how blurred the line is between fantasizing about something and writing it down and showing it to a few friends, because Herongale already did that way better than I ever could. But I want to stab at this notion of fanfic = immoral. Why? Why is it immoral for me to write a story about something I love?

Diana Gabaldon made the analogy of 'breaking into someone's house'. To this I call bullshit, because by publishing the book and making it publically available, she is inviting people into this 'house'. And now, when people are writing up about what they saw in the house, she's saying 'please don't do that'. Which is all well and good, but does that mean that the people who had already written up blog entries about their visit to the house and posted them online are immoral?

Let me rephrase: if I went to an open house that is available for everyone and anyone to go see at their leisure, and then later posted a blog entry about my experience at the house without asking the owner's permission first, is it immoral?

Maybe you think it is. That's cool. I don't.

To get back to fanfic, I personally think becomes immoral in a couple of different scenarios:

1) I try to sell the fanfic. This is a no-brainer. If I'm planning to commercially use the author's intellectual property, then I need to give the author a cut - and, duh, ask permission to sell something based off of their works. Otherwise I'm taking money that should be going to them.

2) I claim that the author's ideas are my own. Basically, this would be if I posted a story using the author's ideas, world, and entire setup and claim the whole thing was my idea. I think we all know what this is called...

3) The author has requested that fanfiction not be posted or shared publically for their work, and I still post it. Not that I can't write out my fantasies, but I can't post them online for the whole world to see. I'm not sure where 'sharing with friends' falls on this vague spectrum, but posting it on a site like FanFiction.Net is definitely not cool.

Even though I personally think the author is not only arrogant but also kind of dense for making that request.

Fanfiction can be like free publicity. Let me use an example. When I was into Gundam Wing, there was a particular fanfic author I liked who had a website with all of her work on it. Aside from Gundam Wing, she wrote for a couple of other fandoms. One of them was Weiss Kreuz. Because I enjoyed her stories, I decided to take a peek at this series just to see if it was interesting and if it would be worth watching in order to read and understand her fanfic. Long story short, I became a Weiss fan and - yes - ended up purchasing the DVD set. So, the creator of Weiss made money off of this fanfic author.

I'm sure this isn't an isolated case.

Personally, I think fanfiction is, at the very least, not harmful to the author. At best, it can even help to promote an author's works. Most authors seem to get this - at least, the ones I've written fanfic for do (granted, most of them are in Japan, where they've got this whole semi-legalized doujinshi production going on, but still). That's why it kind of makes me sad whenever I see an author getting all in a tither over this outrageous idea that someone might be trying to interpret their precious creation in a different way than they intended. Because, really, that's what the majority of this argument seems to come down to.

Seriously, guys... If you didn't want people to do that, why make it public at all?

EDIT: Thanks to

gossymer, I found another great rant on the subject. Go read it. It's excellent.

EDIT THE SECOND: Two more links: here and here.

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Yeah, I don't get it either myself.

I mean fanfiction writing which started merely to improve my written english eventually grew into a desire into wanting to write a novel (I already have an idea for a two book story!)And in my (deluded) mind I somehow ever got good and popular enough to have a fandom I'd be giddy with excitement over the idea of fanfiction. After I'd finished with it and the world, I'd want to see what others would do. (I;d probably keep away from fanfic until I'd finished it if I was doing a series, but AFTER it? Oh yeah.)

Fanfiction would be the greatest form of flattery, sure you get a lot of bad fic out there too but the fact that people take the time and get enjoyment over exploring your own creation in another way. What could be more flattering then that?

I agree with you, but if I were planning on actually publishing, I'd want to be a little cautious about admitting that I read fanfic for my own stuff.

You're likely to either fall into the shipping war trap by taking sides (hello, Mike and Brian of Avatar) or opening yourself up to 'he/she stole my idea from a fanfic I did based on his/her work' (*cough* J.K. Rowling).

Probably the best public stance to take is "I don't mind fanfiction, but I'm not going to read it for my own work. Please do not send yours to me."

... And then, y'know, read and possibly write it in secret.

I used to joke with a friend that one day I'd love to write a book series that had no specified pairings in it and then write pairing fanfic under a fake name and see how many flames I get stating that 'the author would never do this with her characters!'

Petty and childish, I know, but still fun.

Oh yeah, that's a good point actually. I'd probably would say it is flattering and what not but say I don't read it.

And I get what you mean about the shipping. Three of my main characters are two girls and a guy. There's no romance but I could see a ship war if I ever got popular (-snort-, as if, but a girl can dream can't she?)

Then I'd write the obvious feemeslash pairing in fanfic. Because that would be hilarious. Oh and a crack pairing of another two characters too. Yeah.

(Geez MG, you have to write the whole thing first).(And then get published). (And somehow trick people into thinking it's actually good on a mass scale.) (Yeah.).

I agree. It is completely illogical to assume that one can control the creation of fanfiction, especially on the internet.

"Oh no!! Some else is getting attention for my character!? :O!!! That can't be! Everyone must pay attention to ME! MEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEM ME ME!!!!"
- Angry Authors

Hahaha! So true. :D Especially in Anne Rice's case. I don't even think that woman tries to hide the batshit crazy any more.

I just find the idea of getting offended by the existance of fanfiction to be an incredibly stupid and petty reaction. What did you expect? Seriously.

Btw, did you get the invite to my stagette party? Just wanted to make sure you knew about it. ;)

Where did all this come from?

I mean, I haven't seen anything about it until now and now I'm starting to feel bad about my fanfics when I know I shouldn't be. It's not like I'm getting paid for it :/

Yeah, you really shouldn't be. I don't. I've read both essays and feel not the slightest bit guilty for writing fanfic.

Personally I think these two authors are just being childish ('it's MY toy and NO ONE can play with it but ME'). Doesn't affect me, though, since Martin's books are pretty bleh in my opinion and I've never even read anything by Gabaldon (and never will, now).

Word. I already bought Martin's first book of the series but never got round to reading it myself, I might give it a shot, but after this it seems rather unlikely to me that I'll do so.

Gabaldon whose own blog post was incredibly insulting and rather over dramatic and pathetic in my view (I mean how do you get off comparing fanfic writing to some of the worst crimes you could imagine? Please.) As a result, I am automatically questioning what her moral themes would be like in her actual work before I even read them (and I don't care the waste my time on doing so). From her post it looks like it wouldn't be that realistic and it would be overly condemning with a very black-and-white plot with disproportionate retribution. At least if we are to judge the potential plot on the attitude of the author. I don't care for that in books I'm reading (or within the plots of shows or movies), even if I can dig the writing style.

And even if it turned out to be fantastic and I was wrong in this instance, the very fact she held such pathetic viewpoints and came off like this in terms of her actual personality would always be in the back of my mind as I was reading it. Sad but true.

Yeah, agreed. It was mostly Gabaldon's post I was responding to here; Martin at least is being civil. I disagree with his views, but I don't necessarily think he's being an idiot (not looking at the whole picture and being a little childish about it, maybe, but not just plain stupid).

Gabaldon is not only being ignorant, but also offensive. That makes me want to slap the 'idiot' label on her, and although I don't approve of all the screaming and yelling she's getting in response, I can't say I really feel sorry for her.

I don't know that her views on fanfic would have any impact on the morals in her books, but I agree with your last point: I'd always have her little online temper tantrum playing over in my head if I were to read one.

True... Martin was better and more civil even though I completely disagree with him.

And I also do not feel sorry for her at all. Yet I also feel like the people replying should probably take the high road more when directly responding to her. Even though YES- she is being incredibly childish, overly-dramatic and her blog looks like it was written to be delibrately inflammatory. But that doesn't mean direct responders should be. They should be better than she is. There is nothing more irritating for the above type of poster like her, than someone who is calmer, more rationally inclined and does not resort to insults, and is therefore more able to point out the fallacies of the arguments of the opposition clearly and effectively... and isn't on -your- side. Martin at least is calmer, though he has still failed to argue his case effectively at all and doesn't really concede that fanfic supporters may have a point. (Though I haven't looked at most of the responses myself so I can't know for sure, just some of the comments irritate me so much that I have to step away from the computer and decided not to go back. I don't want to fall to troll-dom. I don't want to have to deal with the wank!)

I've kind of learned (by painful experience) that responding to wank with wank is often like adding petrol to the fire though. In the end, everyone looks stupid.

Besides she's entitled to free speech, especially on her own blog. It's kind of like the fact that there are MANY people who have viewpoints I disagree with, even find completely rediculous and heck morally repungent, but they still should have the right to say it.

The thing is people also should have the right to -point out- that it is rediculous. True you might not find it to be rediculous yourself but still. If you post a viewpoint... don't be surprised if people are going to disagree or critique on it unless it's on something obvious like 'Stereotypes can be offensive' or 'Kicking an abused puppy is wrong'. It kind of ties in with the last line of the original post you wrote too. Don't want it challenged? Don't make it public.

It's just also... I seriously think Gabaldon has a severe lack of -perspective- from her blog post which I fear possibly is even within her own writing of her books (I will concede however that this fear may be wrong, but it's just a feeling I have.)

Questions about morality and other things are sometimes what I enjoy in books and shows even if it's simple. They cause lively discussion (and best done without wank though it can tread a dangerous line). And I'm not sure how well the moral side of the story, if she has one, would be handled at all if they think fanfic writers should practically be on death row. I mean goodness, what would her stance be on REAL crimes in her books and criminals who when it gets the bare bones possibly wouldn't be so bad in different circumstances if that is so? So it makes me uneasy. Not having the ability to put yourself in someone elses shoes and being overly condemning in a rediuclous manner doesn't really give me high hopes for their ability to write realistic characters). I mean comparing fanfic writers to -that- sort of thing? It's ludicrous and should be even if you wouldn't like fanfic of your own work yourself, and I'm not surprised people were initially angry over it.

Though yeah, it would be better if people simply calmly sauntered in, pointed out the fallacies in their argument (like herongale has?). It would probably also be best if they DO point out how insulting and overly dramatic the post was... just in a tactful way.

Don't feed trolls (even trolls with good grammar and spelling) with trollish behaviour. Seriously guys, that's where they get their power from. Don't give them that!

*sorry had to edit- it looked like I said 'you people' which wasn't what I meant. Sorry.

This is complete and utter bullshit. I'll bet you anything most of these authors crying "NO FANFIC OR I'LL KILL YOU!" have some fanfic skeletons in their own closets. I mean, how many professionally published authors started out this way?

The first one to do this was Anne Rice. Yet, her own most famous books, the Lestat series, are variations on a story written about a century ago by Bram Stoker, and Stoker's own work was pretty much a fanfiction of various Romanian myths and legends.

Oh, everything is based on something these days. I understand that the Outlander series by Ms. Gabaldon is some sort of historical fiction. Even if she believes from the bottom of her heart that it's her own complete original work, I'm sure there's something somewhere that inspired it. No storyline is so original that at least part of it isn't based on or similar to something else.

I think their major beef is this new-fangled internet thingy we got going here where we can publically post fanfic and share it with like-minded fans. That probably wasn't around in their day. The outrage seems to be directed at the 'publicly available' part of the fanfic, not the actual writing of it. Herongale talked about that more in her response, though.

Someone ELSE is being rather daft about fanfic. At least she's not calling us hardened criminals- just simply that we're highly uncreative. Also that anyone who writes for SHOWS are also higly uncreative.

Pfft.

-Goes off and tries to find surrealist painting I saw in Venice where the artist climaed there was no story but would probably fit a Doctor Who fanfic eerily too well... gah-

http://www.journalfen.net/community/fandom_wank/1248862.html

*claimed

(Plus finding the painting again is difficult as can't remember name of picture or artist, remember what it had in it though).

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