silverthunder | (no subject)

My DVDs arrived in the mail yesterday. Which DVDs, you ask? The entire series of Gundam Wing, including Endless Waltz in both OAV and movie form, with both English dub and Japanese with English Subtitle versions.

And how much did this set me back? Would you believe... fifty dollars?

I'm ecstatic. And yes, friends with the postal system again, after two weeks of cursing them.

It's kind of amazing that I made it up to 25K with NaNo. Heh. But that's okay.

In other news... V. I wrote it. Just this morning. I don't know what compelled me to finally get on it - maybe it's just happiness because you're home for a while and because I'm pleased with the world in general, but I wrote it.

For the uninformed, please note that I feel very accomplished upon writing this little piece of discussion, because it's been swimming around in my head for a while and I wondered if maybe I was going crazy. But V and I did talk about it last night, and so here it is in its rough form... Not really a structured essay, but I think it's not too bad. I'll probably post this on the fma_fan ML but I wanted to run it by people who like me before I brave the hoard. I'd appreciate comments, criticism, notes about structural or grammatical errors, and any sort of discussion, although I think I'm most likely to receive strange looks instead.

I don't care. I wrote this. So hah.

I've seen a few statements, arguments, and various other forms of discussion in this fandom regarding the subject of a relationship between the two brothers, Edward and Alphonse - in fandom terms, Elricest. A lot of people - even some of its fans - believe that there is something about this relationship that makes it inherently wrong. The question that's been floating around in my head since I really started looking at these discussions is... why? What makes incest - specifically Elricest - inherently evil?

First of all, what sort of images come into your head when the word 'incest' is mentioned? Think about it for a minute. The initial reaction for the majority of people is to picture a pair of "redneck" cousins or to see a lecherous uncle taking advantage of his eight-year-old niece. But, setting aside the "ew" factor for a moment, what is the definition of incest? Webster describes it as "sexual intercourse of kindred". In other words, a sexual relationship between family members.

For the purposes of this argument, let's set aside the issue of how closely related you have to be to someone for it to really be considered 'incest'.

Why is incest bad? This is the core question of this discussion. The first, and probably most important, reason has to do with genetics. When siblings or cousins procreate, there's a much higher chance that the offspring will display defects or mutations. Second is the familiarity argument, which is most often used by those who have siblings themselves. When growing up from childhood with someone, you can know them far too well to "really think of them sexually".

Now, in the context of the argument, the first issue is not very compelling. Edward and Alphonse Elric are both male. There cannot be an offspring with genetic defects, because it is impossible to produce any offspring at all. Of course, there may be other issues involved, but for the purposes of this essay, we'll ignore them.

When we come to the issue of familiarity, we find a slightly more compelling argument, and one that could very well hold - if the opposition chooses to be consistant. If the issue of familiarity in this manner is to hold, it must hold in all cases. Suppose we create a hypothetical situation for the sake of discussion, and examine the issue more closely.

In this imagined situation, Alphonse is taken from his family's house, and is raised in the Rockbell household. Winry, then, is taken from her family's house and raised in the Elric household. Edward and Winry are raised together, and Alphonse is raised separately. Now come the questions. Is a relationship between Edward and Winry forbidden in this case? Is a relationship between Edward and Alphonse permissible?

If the answer is no to both questions, then the argument of familiarity doesn't hold, and we must find another reason for why incest is inherently wrong. If the answer is yes to both questions, then the argument holds and we can think no more about it. Any other combination of yes and no answers provides contradictions that would be fatal for the argument. To be logically consistant, a person arguing the issue of familiarity would have to answer yes in both cases. And yet, a great number of people would be quick to answer with two negatives.

Why? What is this inherent evil associated with incest? Speaking as someone with three sisters, the idea of even thinking about them sexually is stomach-turning. The initial reaction to incest is to scrunch your nose, curl your lips, and say "ew! Nasty." But why? What is the reason behind our gut reaction? It seems in this case simply to be a matter of socialization - because it is so deeply ingrained in our heads that it is wrong, we believe it is without question.

This is my question to everyone reading this essay. I want to believe that there's something behind my initial reaction - that there is a reason for it. But the more I think about it, the more I seem to come back to the conclusion that there really isn't anything. If there is something I've missed, I'd love to hear you point it out. And please don't tell me it's wrong because "God says so". I want a logical argument, with proof provided - and the first thing you'd have to prove to me is that God exists in the first place, so please just don't go there.

Side note: On the issue of Elricest

I wanted to include this last bit of discussion, since I thought it was an interesting argument. It doesn't have to do with the issue of incest being inherently evil, but if a person wanted to logically argue why Elricest might be an unhealthy relationship, this is the most compelling reason.

Simply put, Edward and Alphonse are members of a society that - most likely - abhores incest. Perhaps there are no logical reasons for this distaste, but the taboo is in place. The belief is ingrained into them, the same way it would be with a person in this society. They would not only feel compelled to hide their relationship, but it would cause shame, possibly feelings of degradation and self-disgust. The idea of a relationship involving two people who believe it is inherently wrong to be with each other is something of a dangerous concept.

In other words, Elricest would be wrong because it is wrong. Which is a bit of a distressing thought, but probably very relevant.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

In ref: to the Gundam Wing DVDs...

*weeps* I hate you. Wah.

You want it?

Here's another auction. Same item. Same seller. I'll vouch for the quality of the product. ^^

This person is selling a *lot* of anime at very good prices - and if you miss out on one auction, they've got multiple auctions with the same product.

So, if you want the DVDs, you can buy them. :)

Guh.

O_O

And I just swore I'd tone down with the anime spending... haha.

In my experience, that only works as long as you don't find anything you want to buy. ;)

Good for you for writing it :D I won't give you my opinion :P

Damn you. :P

Hm, interesting little essay on the subject of incest. It seems to me that incest is something that we have been culturally conditioned to find abhorrent in any form. Since most people are also culturally conditioned to find homosexuality wrong, the genetic argument is the main issue.

I didn't realize fans were arguing against Elricest as inherently wrong. Today is a day I learn about a lot of fandom oddities.

After giving it this much thought and then writing an essay on the subject, I came to the same conclusion. V and I had a very interesting discussion about this last night.

And yes, the topic of homosexuality came up as the same sort of issue. Really, it is, it just doesn't produce as strong a reaction in as many people.

Actually, most of what I cam across were disgruntled Elricest fans who were sick of people telling them they're sick and wrong.

Well, I'd think in fandom, where there are many yaoi/BL fans, homosexuality would produce a weaker reaction.

Probably the biggest problem is fandom itself. Some people like to go around telling people what they think is wrong, because they think they are some kind of authority. *shrug*

Well, yeah. I mean, when I'm a fan of a particular couple and people are telling me I'm wrong just because they're right, I get a little disgruntled too. Because, for crying out loud, what the hell makes them so special?

*laugh* Yeah, that certainly happens all the time. Obviously they made themselves special, these all-knowing people of authority.

Interesting point that their own social conditioning would ultimately be the destructive factor in the relationship. Overall, a solid essay -- just brace for wank when you post it, if only because of the subject matter and the tendency of the fandom to wank.

Yes, I know. I just want to get my thoughts out there. I'm sure there have to be a *few* people who can take it rationally and give me logical discussion and arguments.

Maybe I'm too much of an optimist.

Anyway, glad you liked it!

I don't find incest all that bad as long as it's consentual. However, most societies as a whole do not condone brother-sister types of relationships. At least not now adays. Brother-sister types of relationships were accepted in the past. The only, and I stress only, incestual relationship that no society has every practiced nor accepted is parent-child.

As for Elricest, I find it wrong because I think it makes their relationship a bit shallow. I don't really feel like going into debate about it, but Elricest I find...I guess maybe just displeasing because I like their relationship how it is; I like that they're two brothers that care for each other because of what they've gone through and can love each other without it being interpreted as sexual.

I don't like Elricest either, and for approximately the same reasons, but I'm willing to admit that it's also partly because I have that 'ew' reaction to incest, and I don't think it's going to be easy to overcome. ^^;

But yeah, I definitely agree that I prefer the brother dynamic.

Angel Sanctuary comes to mind... and makes Elricest seem a lot more tame. e_e Even so, I like that you posted the argument; I've thought about it, and I don't like it, but you do make several good points.

~~Of course, all of this is irrelevant because I'm going to be killing you for your Gundam Wing DVDs.~~ e_e

*laugh* There's a link above if you want to check out the profile for the seller who provided me with the DVDs. They're a very good price, and I will vouch for the quality.

And thank you for reading and commenting on the essay. ^^ I'm glad you found it interesting.

I am totally squicked by Elricest/incest. It may be an irrational taboo, but by god I've got it internalized and I have no intention of making the taboo go away.

HOWEVER!

I know where you can find good Elricest porn! You remember Kinslayer, I hope? He's writing an Elricest story that is probably better then any of his Digimon stuff, By Sightless Lightning, and I think you'll like it. That link goes to the most recent chapter; the chapter before it can be found here and contains links to ALL chapters.

I'm told that some of the other authors at

elricest are good, but I wouldn't know. Because, um, incest is disgusting. :)

I didn't want to say anything in the actual essay because I didn't want my own opinion clouding it up, but yeah, I actually have the same reaction as you to incest. Ew. >_<

And I don't like Elricest - I prefer the brother dynamic between them without any sort of sexual connotation.

But. Um. *cough* I've read that story. It's *Kinslayer*. Of course I've read it. I make acceptions for Kinslayer's writing.